Matt: 0:14

Hello everyone And welcome to the switch statement podcast It's a podcast for investigations into miscellaneous tech topics

0:21

This is our 17th episode on Masters of Doom by David Kushner.

Matt: 0:31

Hey, John, how are you doing?

Jon: 0:34

Hey, Matt, I'm doing well. How are you?

Matt: 0:37

I'm doing okay. I, uh, I don't know. I was talking before the, before the pod, she's got a new keyboard, kind of a major keyboard nerd.

Jon: 0:48

Oh yeah. Huge keyboard nerd. Also keyboard settings, Dvorak. That's a, that's a fun one.

Matt: 0:57

Yes. listeners do not know. I think this is the first time. I'm revealing it. I am a Dvorak typist. I got an internship at Google. I went in typing real slow one year, just typing on Dvorak. Uh, but I just did trial by fire, ripped off the bandaid and now I can't use anyone else's keyboard.

Jon: 1:17

My favorite thing is when we're working together and like one of us will hop on the other's computer for a moment and

Matt: 1:24

type garbage.

Jon: 1:25

just not be able to type. It's

Matt: 1:27

The, the best thing was the other day when we plugged a keyboard into a It was generating symbols, like unknown to humans.

Jon: 1:38

Oh yeah. What was happening there?

Matt: 1:40

we could not figure out so I dunno, I guess that was given to us by some alien civilization, but, uh, but yeah, so, um, so new keyboard ZS, ZSA Voyager. If you want to look it up, it's, it's, it's very expensive. It's a very nice keyboard, but, um, jury's still out as to whether or not, uh, it's going to be worth it. But. It's not why we're here today. We're here for the final episode, the epilogue and our summary of Masters of Doom.

Jon: 2:16

Masters of Doom. Joe Lieberman toned down his rhetoric

Matt: 2:23

He has, his rage has been quelled. You

Jon: 2:29

happy he came back to this cause this is the thread that I'm

Matt: 2:33

were really worried about Joe Lieberman.

Jon: 2:35

The plight of Joe Lieberman with regards to the Johns. But yeah, Joe Lieberman, he calmed down the lawsuit, the multi million dollar lawsuit having to do with like Columbine and the effect of video games on children was dropped. And, uh, I think violence in video games became more normalized for better or for worse.

Matt: 2:57

I think this book should have been written from Joe Lieberman's perspective. I think we should, like, we should have only gotten very, like, tangential

Jon: 3:06

This is. This is. what I love about Game of Thrones, where it does that perspective thing, where they would just have a chapter called Lieberman, and it would be like the exact way he thinks about Carmack and Romero. That would be fascinating, actually.

Matt: 3:23

you know, for a combine, People were really up in arms. They wanted to sue it, I guess, uh, about, uh, you know, for Columbine. And what is it? Is that Paducah? Is that how you pronounce that? I feel like I'm pronouncing that wrong.

Jon: 3:37

Ah, maybe Paducah? I have no idea.

Matt: 3:40

Um, and he said, um, you know, this is a tragic situation, but tragedies such as this simply defy rational explanation and the courts should not pretend otherwise. So basically, like, it's really comforting to want to point at something and say, this caused this, but we can't say with any certainty that this, like we, based on the evidence we have, the video games didn't cause this. So it would be crazy for the court to be like, yup, we're going to smack down this whole thing. Just because this was such a bad and tragic experience.

Jon: 4:21

Right. Yeah, yeah, no, and I, I think it's great that he resisted that temptation to point a finger because really that's just, you know, witch hunting basically. You're just trying to find an outlet for your own anger and, Yeah,

Matt: 4:40

something bad is happening. And you're like, I feel like too many times, which, which the meaning of witch hunt has become, lost basically, but it's like, you have a problem and you're just looking for, you know, someone to blame for it. Um, and I think that's what this was.

Jon: 4:58

I think so too, and you have so many other elements. Like, I think American society has been shown over and over again to be like, It's like, highly flawed in its approach to having guns and, you know, dealing with, with violence and, I don't know. I think it's just a disease that, that Americans have

Matt: 5:17

Almost uniquely bad with, with our, the way guns work in the United States.

Jon: 5:24

yeah, no, it's horrible. Um, but anyway, I always hate when we talk social commentary because I'm like not qualified at all to talk about that stuff. But

Matt: 5:33

the only qualification is just to be part of society.

Jon: 5:39

Yeah, no, we are, we're thoughtful members of society, so we can touch on it every now and again.

Matt: 5:45

I think so.

Jon: 5:46

But they also discussed sort of what John Carmack and John Romero did afterwards, sort of after the events of the book, and they sort of talk about how id kind of petered out a little bit. Like the Quake 3 Arena add on that they pushed out was It's sort of critically panned. People thought it was a bad answer to Unreal Tournament. They did do a game called, um, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, which was amazing. I played that game. It was like a really good kind of story, story driven style game. Um, and then I guess by the time the author had written this epilogue, the, that last Doom game hadn't come out yet. Um, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that game was pretty brilliant and I feel like, well, maybe I'm wrong about this, but I thought that game had really good critical reception. So, so,

Matt: 6:48

heard really good things, things about that. let me ask you this. Who do you think would win in a code off Bill Gates or John Carmack?

Jon: 7:07

similar note in my notes that I wanted to ask you. Cause yeah, there was that Bill Gates quote where, you know, They were giving John Carmack this very prestigious video game award, and I can't remember the name of the award, but it's the same award that had been given to Shigeru Maemoto. Um, and so, Bill Gates had apparently recorded a video to play when giving Carmack the award, and Bill Gates said he could, like, write tighter code than Carmack, which, uh,

Matt: 7:37

and tighter code than John.

Jon: 7:40

I don't know, man. I would pick Carmack every single day of the week just because I think, I'm sure Bill Gates is brilliant and probably wrote some really amazing code in his day. Carmack like stayed in it, you know, like he never left the trenches. He's, I mean, still to this day, I feel like he's like an IC engineer. Uh, individual contributor, by the way, for folks who've never heard that acronym. But, um, yeah, I think, I think Carmack just kind of stayed true to his guns and just coded all day. Whereas Bill Gates started getting up into the business and not coding as much and probably lost a lot of his. His abilities.

Matt: 8:20

Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I think of, of his talents, Bill Gates was a great businessman. I mean, I think he obviously was really solid technically, and I've heard stories where it's like he was running a company that was worth a hundred million dollars and he was able to just like talk at a very fine grain detail with just some random engineer on, on some arbitrary part of the windows team. Um, but he

Jon: 8:48

Oh yeah.

Matt: 8:49

He just knew it all.

Jon: 8:51

I think it was, um, uh, man, I almost said Joel Olsteen. Who's that like, uh, televangelist guy. But, um, Joel Spolsky? I think had a blog where he discussed a design review that he went to with Bill Gates in it. And Bill Gates at this point was like, you know, CEO or something. He was super high ranking. So it was, um, you know, he didn't expect any technical contributions from Bill Gates in this design review. But apparently in the midst of the review, Bill Gates started asking these like very pointed technical questions that were like very valid, very useful. You know, just truly good questions. And, and anyway, it was, it was a really good blog post. I can't remember who, who wrote it. Um, might've been Spolsky.

Matt: 9:38

so, they were inducted into the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences Hall of Fame. That's kind of the Oscars of, uh, video games, I guess.

Jon: 9:48

Yeah. What a cumbersome name. They need something more catchy.

Matt: 9:54

I kind of like it. They, they, they named themselves like the broadest possible category that like, wasn't already covered by something else, you know, uh, you, cause they could have just called themselves. Well, first off, they just called them themselves the academy of video games. Like no one would have taken them seriously. Um, but it leaves the door open to something that's you like something that's graphically impressive, but isn't a. You know, like some sort of visualization in like a industry or something.

Jon: 10:26

Yeah. True. Um, one of the things I really liked about this book was all the, like, very Carmack, I want to call them like Carmackisms, where there's just like a, you know, Carmack will say something that's just so utterly Carmack, like he's almost a caricature of his own self. But this, the epilogue had one of the best Carmackisms. Which was Carmack saying that he could get as much sort of pleasure in how the universe works, sitting in the bathroom, like looking at a fluorescent light as he could at the Grand Canyon, because he can just kind of wonder and marvel at the way that like light reflects off angles and like, you know, specular and diffuse lighting and, you know, whatever. And it just, I don't know, it made me kind of crack up a little bit.

Matt: 11:16

I'm so glad, like, I actually really am glad that he said this because I have this very weird relationship with travel, which is like, as compared to most people, I just don't have an innate desire to travel pretty much at all. And like, I just would rather, uh, I would just rather build something, you know, build something physical, build some, you know, build the program. And I feel self conscious about that. Like I wish I loved to travel. And I was one of those people who would just be want to like go to the ends of the earth. But it's just not the way that I am. Uh, and I dunno, it made me feel like a little bit better. I mean, I guess maybe it shouldn't cause he's kind of the most extreme example of, of like a robotic person. But, uh, but I dunno, at least there's another person.

Jon: 12:04

do you find that you derive joy from like, I don't know, random physical interactions in your everyday space?

Matt: 12:14

yeah, I don't know that I exactly have the same. Same thing that, uh, Carmack is talking about here, where I'm looking at light or caustics and being like, Oh, my brain is exploding with math.

Jon: 12:32

so then they, they also discuss like Romero's, you know, post book life. Uh, he sort of went into mobile games, which is interesting. I think we might've touched on this in the last chapter, but he started a company called monkey stone where they

Matt: 12:48

This was the first I saw that, yeah, I saw that name. Um.

Jon: 12:52

so it's pretty cool. I think Romero was one of the first people to like, really embrace mobile gaming and, you know, try to. Get on that as early as possible. And he sort of took it seriously. Um, and he made a game called hyperspace delivery boy, uh, which I've never played it. I don't know, I don't know how it works, but you know, apparently it was fairly critically well received. Uh, and I also just think it's kind of cool that Romero did that. It feels very Romero, like going back to basics, kind of back to his roots. Uh, small team, designing a tiny game, took a few months, like, so, I like that for Romero. Yeah.

Matt: 13:35

for being a visionary where he saw, um, He saw mobile games for what they were going to become super early. Uh, and he, you know, he went all in on it. And it's like, yes, that is, that's the primary way anyone plays games today. It's like, you know, obviously that's not what people think about when they think of like the gamer stereotype. But my understanding is the best selling games platform of all time is the iPhone, you know.

Jon: 14:03

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Fortnite, Fortnite on iPhone. That's like the holy grail

Matt: 14:09

is that? Yeah, is that, is that, does that exist?

Jon: 14:13

I think so. Yeah, I think, I think mobile Fortnite is like one of the best selling games of all time. It's like up there with Minecraft.

Matt: 14:20

Didn't, didn't Apple just, uh, rage cancel, uh, Epic?

Jon: 14:25

Yeah, well, and that's why it's like they had such raging success. I think Apple, cause you know, a fortnight tried to get around. I think, I think it's like a long saga. We could actually do like a whole episode about this. Cause I don't know the details, but fortnight was somehow getting around apples, like, you know, I don't know, ridiculously high, like 30 percent fee, uh, that they are 30 percent cut that they take of your profits. Um, so. I think they like had their own store or something. And then Apple like cracked down on that and that was like a monopoly and I don't know. So it's been this back and forth thing, but I don't know all the details.

Matt: 15:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just, yeah, it just seems like this, I don't know, never ending tit for tat between them.

Jon: 15:11

Yeah.

Matt: 15:12

But yeah, I mean that's that's basically it I mean we hear about of Romero selling his Ferrari and He's you know making this game with Tom in the backwoods And so the the Ferrari isn't gonna isn't isn't cut out so, uh, he sells it to I guess, uh, Some uh some super fan

Jon: 15:36

Yeah. For 80 grand, which a lot of money. Uh, he cut off his hair. Romero has that iconic. Extremely long hair. Uh, he cut it all off, gave it to Loxa Love. So that's good. Someone out there is walking around with Romero's hair.

Matt: 15:52

hair, but he grew it back. I think, right. I like, I feel like I've seen recent stuff where he still has really long hair.

Jon: 16:00

His hair is long again, yeah. Um, One of the gross things they mentioned, I think this was in the um, Afterword. There's like a part after the epilogue. Uh, Romero apparently married like a 19 year old from Mexico. From Bucharest, like a, almost like a mail order bride type situation, but I guess it was some, a woman that he had email correspondence with from back in the day. So he left Stevie case or Stevie case left him and he married this 19 year old, which just kind of, I don't know, just made me cringe a little bit, I

Matt: 16:34

and he would have been like in his mid to late thirties at the time, I guess, right?

Jon: 16:39

Yeah, yeah, probably, probably a little too old for a 19 year old, but

Matt: 16:44

that's that's kind of gross. Um, But I guess that's it. And then, and then Carmack just, you know, we talked a bunch about this, but he, he's launching his rockets, uh, where we, we leave them off. So he, his aspirations are, it's, what's funny is they kind of trade places in their aspirations, right? Because Carmack always wanted to have a small company and then Romero always wanted to be like a really epic games company. And then now like Carmack is, his aspirations have included the moon and then, you know, Romero has his, uh, his tiny little shop and he's content with that.

Jon: 17:28

Yeah. Uh, that is, it's kind of poetic in a way. Um, but yeah, they, they talk about the 10 million prize that I don't know if anyone's actually won that prize yet. Um, but

Matt: 17:40

They must have, right? Because you were just supposed to get, it was a business that got to space, I think, right?

Jon: 17:46

Yeah. I think all you had to do was get three people into space and back within some timeframe. And

Matt: 17:51

Oh, you had to get peopled into space? Okay, maybe. I

Jon: 17:55

I can't remember, but they alluded to the prize and they were like, yeah, maybe Carmack will win, win this prize. But I don't think that's the way it played out. Um, but in any case, the, the epilogue kind of wraps up with a little meat cute, which I thought was such, such a weird way to end. They talk about, uh, Carmack being in a parking lot, unable to start his Ferrari and Romero pulls up in a Hummer and helps him jump his Ferrari.

Matt: 18:25

so funny. Yeah, um, and that's it. That's the story of, of Doom.

Jon: 18:31

Yep. The two Johns.

Matt: 18:34

all right, so we have our, we have our typical questions. And the first one is, who do you think would get the most value out of this book?

Jon: 18:49

Oh, um, yeah, I think if you're, man, that's actually a really good question for this book, because it's not like a technical, it's not going to teach you anything, it's more of a historical book. You know, if you're interested in the video game industry, this is like, you know, these are two huge figures in that industry and their accomplishments are Very important to that industry. I mean, Carmack undoubtedly, like, single handedly progressed to the video game industry. Um, and so yeah, maybe if you're historically inclined, I think it's also just really fun if you're interested in the history of video games. Which I feel is a bigger and bigger, like, like I see a lot of YouTube content these days about the history of video games. Which I'm a super huge fan of, by the way. Um, so if you're inclined that way, I think you'd enjoy this book. Um, but yeah, what do you think?

Matt: 19:49

Yeah, I think. I think it might have the biggest impact on someone who's a little younger, maybe starting out college and like thinking about getting into video game development. It's funny because I guess, I guess it might not be the best because it might try, it might like encourage them to get into video game development, which like I don't think is a good way to start a, uh, start a career in software engineering. But, um, But I don't know, I mean, some people can just pull that off and that's, you know, good for them. But I think most people, it's, my sense is it's kind of a slog. Um,

Jon: 20:28

Oh yeah. If you're working at a big AAA company, definitely is.

Matt: 20:32

but I think it's really inspiring. I think back to the Carmack quotes where he's like, anyone can pull this off now. Anyone can get in to do anything they want, you know, now in these days, like the, and, and since the book has come out, the barriers have been lowered still like

Jon: 20:50

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: 20:51

Um, so just some, you know, someone who is a little younger and like, it kind of encourages them to break boundaries and what have you. I think that in terms of like a material, like this might affect the way they decide to live the rest of their life.

Jon: 21:07

Yeah. No, that's a good call out because I mean, the book is very inspiring and it's also, you know, you kind of realize like these two Johns didn't really come from the same place. You know, some crazy background that would have enabled them to do this. I mean, they definitely had like certain aspects of their background that, that helped, but you know, it was mostly through their own gumption and kind of, you know, it was just sticking with it and figuring it out. Also their partnership is that's one thing about this book that I think really resonated for me is like just the value of a partnership. You find someone who's simpatico who like wants to work on similar things. That's so, so useful and valuable.

Matt: 21:47

yeah, definitely that, but also kind of interesting that they show some of the dysfunction too. So it's, it's showing the realities of, of a collaboration, how sometimes, you know, when you burn really brightly like it did, you get all these egos and, you know, things can kind of flame out. So, um, but yeah, uh, And again, I mean, even for myself, um, this makes me want to, like you're saying, like, create that, that small group of people all in the same space, recreate that environment. so then question two is how much impact did this book have on you? Yeah.

Jon: 22:35

uh, because I read this book a long, long time ago, and I think I've mentioned a few times in the course of this, this series that I was actually kind of obsessed with John Carmack growing up. Like he was one of my, one of my heroes. And, uh, you know, the book sort of revealed him as this, you know, Kind of nuanced character. He's not this like, wholly good person. He has some negative attributes. And so yeah, when I first read this book, it actually, I think this is actually one of the reasons I went into software. It's because of John Carmack and, you know, because of this book. But yeah, I mean reading it again was, Wasn't as impactful just because I've sort of already read it, already experienced it. But yeah, that first time I read it, I mean, it was, it was very eyeopening. You know, when you're young, I think you have this view of like the video game industry, that's just very like superficial. And even though this book is pretty good. I would say this book is a fairly superficial, it doesn't go into that much depth on like the day to day of how making a video game works or anything like that. But it does, it opens your eyes a little bit if you're sort of, you know, coming at it from nothing like I was at the time.

Matt: 23:54

Yeah, and and yeah, it's funny It's definitely true that I felt like I wish that there was like more technical details But there are there are hints of that where I feel like if you don't know anything They might give you like a couple of things to You know, to Google and then you, like, you could learn a bunch more about it. So I think it can work actually, you know, as a technical introduction to some of these concepts.

Jon: 24:22

Yeah? Yeah, yeah. And also, one thing the book, Does a good job of is just sort of describe how much work it is.

Matt: 24:30

Oh my

Jon: 24:30

Uh, that's, that's another thing that I did not get as a kid, but it's just become more and more true is like, you know, they talk about Carmack, just not sleeping, you know, coming into work and working 16 hour days every single day. Like, that's just how it is. If you really want to get into video games, like that will be your life.

Matt: 24:48

This is something that I feel really, uh, kind of maybe cognitive dissonance is the right word where I believe. Work life balance is really important, but then you hear all of these stories where you have someone who is almost compulsive in their, you know, obsession about like achieving something and they achieve something great. And I guess, I guess maybe it, it damages them in the process. Like there is a toll on them and their life and their relationships. So maybe that's, you know, that's where the balance comes in where it's like, yeah, if you have a good work life balance, you may not be able to write the Quake engine, you know?

Jon: 25:32

Right,

Matt: 25:33

but you know, your experience will probably be better over the long run,

Jon: 25:37

for me, that that's what it comes down to is like, you have to figure out who you want to be. And if you want to be an indie developer who isn't sort of shattering the industry with your like new innovations, then you can absolutely have work life balance and, you know, work. Seven hour days, five days a week and just take it relatively chill and produce great content. I mean, there's nothing preventing the average person from being able to do that. But what I think Carmack was, was continually redefining genres, innovating, always at the top of his game, beating the competitors, you know, that type of life takes extreme dedication. And, you know, you're fighting a war at that point. And if you let, if you pull back or pull your punches at all, then you're going to lose. And I just don't think that was in Carmack's emotional vocabulary.

Matt: 26:35

It's so funny because for a while it was like Carmack was fighting a war without any other participants. He was behaving as if it was, I mean, again like just compulsive, but and he was just like pushing the boundary, pushing the boundary in ways that like no one else could compete with for a while there.

Jon: 26:54

no, I mean, and that's, I don't know, that's part of the reason he was this almost godlike figure to me when I was younger. oh, okay, I like this one. Did the author achieve his or her goals, his in this case?

Matt: 27:08

Yeah, so, uh, David Kushner. Um, I still have not, uh, got over the urge to say Jared

Jon: 27:16

Jared, yeah

Matt: 27:18

I think first and foremost. Uh, David Kushner's goals were to entertain, and then second is kind of to inform. So I think, I think this, this was a very easy book to read. I felt like it was generally, you know, very followable. Like, I dunno, it was just well written I would say. Um, and yeah, I mean, I think, I think it does what it set out to do. Um, And I don't know, like, it's hard to know if it's adhering to the facts. Uh, you know what I mean? It's like you, I have to assume that there were some like simplifications or details that were kind of like smoothed over. I don't know if I had a better knowledge of the events. Like maybe I would, I would ding it a little bit,

Jon: 28:07

I agree a hundred percent I I thought I actually think this is not an easy book to write like, you know This is a kind of a boring story if you really take a step back like these guys just sat at their desks all day and like Wrote code and, you know, obviously that's kind of putting it as boringly as possible, but I think David Kushner did a good job of, you know, first of all, telling the story about these two super important people, making it pretty interesting. Like this is kind of a page turner. Um, and I think the average person could just pick this book up and read it. You don't need to know anything about software or anything like that. It's just kind of an interesting story about successful, flawed, highly flawed individuals. So yeah, I, I'm big fan.

Matt: 28:53

that's a really good point. I'm sure that. He had a ton of like, just unnecessary technical, technical detail that he needed to like distill into something that was a good balance of enough information so that the story made sense, but also just consumable by the general populace. Um, and I think he did a really good job with that.

Jon: 29:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt: 29:16

Um, I mean, the one, the one thing I will say is the like random one offs Uh, and maybe this will lead into the last question, but where he just like drops, drops a single fact, introduces a character for like two minutes, tells us that he did a vacation in a old abortion clinic and then ducks out for the rest. Like

Jon: 29:37

the buck, the buck naked, uh, Counter Strike team or

Matt: 29:41

yes.

Jon: 29:42

last question. what would you rate this book on a scale of negative 1 to 1, a floating point number?

Matt: 29:50

Floating point. Yeah. Well, how

Jon: 29:51

Alright, I guess you could pick an integer if you really believe that.

Matt: 29:55

what, uh, yeah. What level of precision are we talking about here? Like one, two decimal points.

Jon: 30:02

Oh, 64 bits.

Matt: 30:04

Oh, nice. Okay. Um, so this is, yeah, so this is a, this is a flow. So well, anyway, I was going to go into way too much detail about

Jon: 30:15

Yeah, let's, let's talk about mantissas for the next 20 minutes.

Matt: 30:19

Um, but yeah, um, I would give it, this is a tricky one. Um, definitely positive. So I'm cutting, cutting the negative, uh, side of the scale off. Um,

Jon: 30:33

Thanks.

Matt: 30:35

yeah, I would probably give it a, a 0. 8.

Jon: 30:41

Nice. Yeah. Which I think I agree with. I mean, it's not the next Ernest Hemingway. It's not some great piece of American literature or anything, but it was just a fun book. These are very interesting people, and it's probably one of the better books that covers, uh, John Carmack and John Romero. And so if you want to learn more about them, like, this is it.

Matt: 31:05

what is your numerical, uh,

Jon: 31:09

I think, I mean, it's always funny to, like, rate a book because obviously there's just such a vast, sort of scope. Like, you know, there's so many books out there and how do you compare this against, like, Catch 22 or, you know, Blood Meridian or something. Uh, but I think it, for what this book is and what this book is aiming to be, I think a 8 makes a lot of sense. I think he did a good job with what he was trying to do.

Matt: 31:34

Okay, nice. Alright, well I guess that's, I guess that's all we got.

Jon: 31:38

Good stuff.

Matt: 31:40

next book, I don't think we've, have we said this on the, on the podcast, is gonna be, is it Girdle Escherbach?

Jon: 31:48

Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't even know how to say it. Yeah, Gödel. I think it's a umlauted O. Is it German? So it's probably Gödel.

Matt: 31:57

I don't know. I guess we'll learn, uh, whether or not he's German. Um, and so what's the, what is the high level overview of the book?

Jon: 32:07

Oh, man. I mean, I don't even know. So, yeah, the book is called Gödel, Escher, Bach. And I think it's I think the book is like a series of almost like meditations or like little, you know, narratives or, each chapter is kind of like a thought provoking thing. and it's, it's viewed through the lens of like art, logic, music. Hence, Gödel, Escher, Bach. I mean, Gödel is famous logician, Bach, obviously greatest musician to ever live. And Escher is this weird artist who did these crazy perspective drawings. Um, so yeah, I think, I think that's kind of what the book is. Uh, but I guess we're going to find out.

Matt: 32:54

Wow. All right. Well, I'm looking, looking forward to it.

Jon: 32:58

Yeah.

Matt: 32:59

I will, uh, see you next time, John.

Jon: 33:01

See you next time, Matt.