Matt: 0:14

Hello everyone And welcome to the switch statement podcast It's a podcast for investigations into miscellaneous tech topics

matt_elon01: 0:31

Hey John. What's going on?

jon_raw: 0:33

Hello, Matt. Uh, everything is going great. How are you doing?

matt_elon01: 0:37

I am doing all right.

jon_raw: 0:40

Ready to start a new book.

matt_elon01: 0:41

New book after only a year.

jon_raw: 0:45

Yeah.

matt_elon01: 0:45

It only took us a year to read our last book. That's pretty good. I think.

jon_raw: 0:48

Dude, that's so insane.

matt_elon01: 0:50

I think if we manage to read this book in nine months, that'll be amazing.

jon_raw: 0:54

Yeah,

matt_elon01: 0:55

a tremendous feat.

jon_raw: 0:56

slowly improving.

matt_elon01: 0:58

Um, so how many, how many new paradigms of thinking about the world or information theory were introduced in, in this chapter? Zero.

jon_raw: 1:09

Yeah, so the nature of this book is quite different from Goodell, Escher, Bach, which was packed with a density of ideas That was kind of astounding. This book?

matt_elon01: 1:20

yeah.

jon_raw: 1:21

Yeah, I mean, this is a Elon Musk biography, so I think it's gonna be far less. Sort of mentally explosive but also interesting in a lot

matt_elon01: 1:32

Ooh. Mentally explosive

jon_raw: 1:34

Yeah, dude, go to Esher. P mentally explosive. Like there was so many new ideas in there and, which is crazy'cause it was from 79 or whatever. But uh, that book was amazing.

matt_elon01: 1:45

So it, uh, this book, this book starts, starts at the start. We see the kind of tumultuous upbringing of Elon Musk in South Africa.

jon_raw: 1:57

Yeah. Did you read the intro?

matt_elon01: 2:00

I read, the, I read, the prologue. I did. Was there an intro be, Uh, before the prologue?

jon_raw: 2:06

Uh, that's probably what I mean. I, I wrote an intro in my notes, but yeah, I mean, his childhood was rough. Like it sounded very, uh, you know, like, uh, just one big example that stood out to me was this thing called Ved School.

matt_elon01: 2:20

dude. I think I think we need to. bring Ved School to America, frankly.

jon_raw: 2:25

I agree, man. I mean, kids should be subjected to Lord of the Flies coliseum style, combat, uh, contests or slash survival contests in order to figure out which the best, you know, the best ones

matt_elon01: 2:39

Where the, the counselors tell the children not to be a weak, dumb fuck.

jon_raw: 2:45

Yeah.

matt_elon01: 2:46

That's the kind of, that's the kind of thing that apparently well. And I know we've talked about this. before, but apparently in order to be a truly successful person, you need to have just this Terrible broken upbringing where there's like a decent amount of violence in your, you know, in your life.

jon_raw: 3:08

this is something I want to continue to pick apart as we read this book because I've sort of thought that. You know America really well. And I always say America, that's just'cause I'm from the United States and this is my background. But I feel like we idolize these people who are like clearly narcissists, you know, clearly, clearly abusive and cruel to those around them, but they do do amazing things. but then you also have to ask yourself the question of like, what are they actually doing? And there's also this concept of like. Is the world just poised to accomplish something and they just so happen to kind of weasel their way into it, or they make something happen maybe a couple years earlier than it would have happened, had normal things, you know, just gone through their course.

matt_elon01: 4:00

I mean, this does raise a really interesting question and it, it challenges, I think an assumption that I have, which is teams that have better psychological safety, and actually this is something that I feel like Google would regularly re. Repeat is that TE teams with higher psychological safety where members feel the feel that they can make mistakes without fear of like retribution or being judged by those teams are more productive, but. This book kind of raises a, a counter to that, which is like, no, you need a boss who is just constantly cracking the whip and like relentless and saying, if you're not here till 2:00 AM

jon_raw: 4:46

Sleeps under his desk.

matt_elon01: 4:47

Sleeps under his desk. and expects everyone else. to do the same. That's apparently how you have the, a really productive team.

jon_raw: 4:55

evidently, yeah. Um, but maybe, maybe we can sort of table this,'cause this, we'll

matt_elon01: 5:00

that's a little further. Yeah. Down the line.

jon_raw: 5:02

I do wanna say what Ved school even is. Uh, so apparently, and I don't know, correct me if I get this wrong, I didn't write too much in my notes, but it's basically this survival camp that if you were a South African at the time, you would sort of send your kids on over the summer, like instead of music camp to go to Ved school. And it's, it's like this thing where you get a little bit of survival equipment and then you just go off in the woods. It sounds like there's very little adult supervision.

matt_elon01: 5:29

Mm-hmm.

jon_raw: 5:30

And what would apparently happen is kids would just basically on day one, would like fight over the resources. And so the strong kids would just take all the, you know, good tents and good food and whatever. And then a little weak, nerdy kid like Elon would just get the crap beat out of'em and he would be left with nothing. Uh, and so this was a very formative. You know, period for him, because he was just learning that the world is this brutal place. and yeah. That's Vel school.

matt_elon01: 6:00

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. so they talked about how, apparently they would give everyone a very small amount of food and then they would basically expect them to. To fight over it, like to steal food from the other children. It's just wild. And I mean, I guess the idea is that South Africa was so violent at the time that you kind of needed to imbue your children with this toughness. And I think it, this was kind of a way to toughen up your child in a context where nothing too terrible was gonna go wrong.

jon_raw: 6:38

Yeah. Yeah. And his, uh, father who is a character, we'll talk about a lot, his father sounds like a horrible person. I'm just gonna come out and say that,

matt_elon01: 6:47

Yeah. Errol

jon_raw: 6:48

Errol Musk, was very pro Ved school. It seemed like Errol Musk was the type who wanted his chi, his children, to be subjected to this like, you know, crucible of of fire where there. Their medal would be tested and like they would come out better, I guess. Uh, there was a period where Elon Musk got kind of horribly beaten up. I think it was during this Velt school thing, and his father sided with the kid who beat him up,

matt_elon01: 7:18

Yeah.

jon_raw: 7:19

basically because I guess the kid who beat him up had lost his father. And so Errol Musk was like, oh, you know, he's lashing out because he lost his father. And therefore he was in the right. I don't know. It's weird. Uh, but anyway, I can't even imagine how that must have felt for Elon, who's, you know, basically sitting in the hospital and his dad comes in and is like siding with the kid who beat him up. Like it's just messed up. Yeah.

matt_elon01: 7:45

Yeah. and it's, it's really hard to know who is. Who to trust in terms of the, these recounting of events because apparently both Elon and his brother Kimball, say he completely made up. That whole father just died to suicide thing. So,

jon_raw: 8:04

Yeah, that's true.

matt_elon01: 8:05

or rather just that Elon provoked it, uh.

jon_raw: 8:09

Right. And, and, uh, Errol very much unreliable. You know, testimony or however you want to call it, um, Walter Isaacson, he basically interviewed all of these

matt_elon01: 8:20

Mm-hmm.

jon_raw: 8:21

and whenever he mentions stuff that Errol said, I feel like he's, he's constantly like prefacing it or sort of giving context that Errol basically might be lying,

matt_elon01: 8:33

Yes.

jon_raw: 8:33

is kind of interesting.

matt_elon01: 8:35

I mean, at least in one case. The author is literally like, listen, we have hard evidence to indicate that this is not what he like. This is not how he was saying this.

jon_raw: 8:49

Yeah. Yeah. Which just makes, I mean, Errol is this scum of the earth person, it seems like, but he's also kind of a tragic figure, uh, in that, I don't know. He, he wants people to remember him fondly, but his actions, you know, spoke louder than words, I guess, and. He was a jerk. So people, I guess this is a lesson, it's like if you're a jerk, people are gonna remember that you're a jerk and you're leg. That will be your legacy.

matt_elon01: 9:16

Yeah. Um, Well, so, we learned, I mean, to that end we learned that, uh, Errol and May, uh, Elon's mother, they split up. You know, like they, because Errol is such a crazy person, and, and again, this starts to, this is another instance where Errol very clearly claims where he never hit his wife. He didn't, he never did X, Y, and Z. But then May is like, no, he like. He lunged at me, he was upset at me, and he was gonna try to seriously hurt me. So, uh, that was the, the last straw.

jon_raw: 10:01

yep.

matt_elon01: 10:02

Oh, and there's, sorry. There was just one really hilarious line there, which I was just like, it just smacked of so much. Uh Yeah. so the quote was, I've never laid a hand on a woman in my life, and certainly none of my wives. And I, it was just like there, there, it's just such an unintentionally hilarious quote because it's like there's no self reflection there. Like, wait a minute. I've apparently had enough wives at this point that. There. I like, there's more than two apparently. Uh, and there's no reflection to be like, oh, you know what? Maybe, maybe this is me. Maybe I'm the reason why I have now, I'm now on at least my third, third wife.

jon_raw: 10:57

Well, and I think this is one of the reasons it's so important to analyze Errol if you're trying to understand Elon, because you can see a lot of Errol's attributes in Elon and we'll, you know, we're gonna see this over and over again. I mean, Errol was like this delusional asshole basically making up realities to support, you know, what he wanted to do and, and his visions. Uh, and you can sort of see a lot of the same thing in Elon. Also the same sort of, you know, and some, I don't wanna make it all sound negative, like Errol was very courageous. He was like a pilot. He did a lot of very adventurous things, um, and sort of, I, I would say had a healthy amount of recklessness. Well, what, I don't know what a healthy amount of recklessness is, but I think he instilled sort of a risk taking. Appetite in Elon, which definitely led to some of his success. So, um, but I wanted to mention one last quote from the intro. Uh, there's a good quote, uh, where Steve Wozniak was talking about Steve Jobs, and he says, did he have to be so cruel, so rough and drama addicted? Uh, and then he kind of goes on to say something along the lines of like, apple probably would not have been half of what it was without that. Um, and I don't know, I just wanna mention that quote.'cause that's something I, I personally want to continue to sort of interrogate is like, do these leaders need to be like this? Um, and I think that's probably gonna come up a lot in this book.

matt_elon01: 12:40

It is weird because. what I see. Steve Jobs as doing is holding Apple to an incredibly high standard, and it's just not obvious to me that you need to be a dick to do that.

jon_raw: 12:59

Yeah, I, I would claim that you don't, I think there's plenty of good leadership that I've observed where that doesn't happen and where everyone feels safe and productive. But then again, I've never, you know, I've never been a part of a team that builds like a multi-billion dollar company. So I don't know.

matt_elon01: 13:15

I, I think about Google And I, do think for a really long time Google had a fantastic culture and they were delivering incredible products, and I do wonder. I don't know. I think they're, I, I don't get the sense that Larry Page and Sergey Brynn were ever such major assholes. Like, and again, I think they kind of struck this balance of holding people to high standards, but not being a dick while they do it.

jon_raw: 13:48

I agree with you that I don't. What I observed at Google was a, a good culture. Although, I mean, I don't necessarily want to talk about the last few years at Google. I think the culture has eroded at Google. It's become more of a corporate entity that has sort of filtered down even to the lowest sort ranking engineers. But, but yeah, for the most part, Google was a positive place and certainly Sundar. Sundar instilled like a very positive vibe. Um, and yeah, I guess you could make an argument that some of that allowed Google to become complacent or hurt the culture in a way. But, but yeah, I think I generally agree that Google had a, a good culture, didn't, certainly didn't have this Elon Musk style culture.

matt_elon01: 14:33

Oh yeah. I never, I never, experienced anything like that.

jon_raw: 14:36

um, but one of my main takeaways from these first few chapters is Elon Musk did not have good role models, like his father was horrible. his mother seems great, but also she had her own struggles. I mean, they div she divorced his father and sort of had financial struggles, like he wasn't surrounded by a lot of loving relationships.

matt_elon01: 15:01

Well, the other thing with her is she seemed like a nice person, but it also seemed like she was not maybe a great judge of character in terms of her. love interests, uh, it Sounds like subsequent. people that she got into relationships with were as bad, if not worse, in some ways than, than Errol.

jon_raw: 15:26

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, wasn't there one that, that was physically abusive?

matt_elon01: 15:31

I think, I think so. I yeah, I. don't have the quote, but

jon_raw: 15:35

but yeah, in any case, your point stands like that. She, she did not pick good dudes, sadly. Um, you get a little in these early chapters, you do get a little bit of inkling of Elon's proclivities or his interest in technology and, you know, programming even more specifically, like in his classes, he'll take like religious studies and get like an e. He has a very strong, like, if he doesn't care about something, he's not gonna do well in it. Uh, he reads this book called Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, which is a hin hindle book. Awesome book by the way. I read that when I was a kid. Um, but it's kind of asks these questions of like, is AI good or bad? Hitchhiker's Guide, he loved, they mentioned this thing called, um, I think it was called Seeker that he built, which was this game. Is that what the game was called? I.

matt_elon01: 16:27

Yeah. Let me see. Because He read, he read bla he made blaster. Which, but I don't know.

jon_raw: 16:34

Oh, okay. Ma Seeker was something else, but I guess he made Blast Star with Pascal and Turbo c plus plus, which I'd, I'd never heard of Turbo c plus plus. I had to look it up. Uh, I guess it's like an integrated development environment that uses c plus

matt_elon01: 16:51

Uh, because I actually, I have heard of Turbo Pascal, Uh. so.

jon_raw: 16:57

I've never heard of that either.

matt_elon01: 16:58

I guess it's probably, just a line of, of IDs, um, which it's cool. I, I don't know, this is a, this is an aside, but I feel like, uh, for a while there it was kind of like you would have an IDE that was tailored to the language that you were writing in, where it was like, you know, there's like pie charm and sea lion and JetBrains, and. I just like that we've kind of moved away. It's like, nope, we, you have to do pretty much the same thing, in all those, different contexts. So we're not gonna have seven different ides for every programming language you're using.

jon_raw: 17:36

yes. Yeah. No, I'm very glad we moved beyond that. I, I also just feel like so many projects are like multi-language that it just kind of doesn't make sense.

matt_elon01: 17:44

So yeah. I mean, we hear he get, he dipped a toe. It almost felt like we were starting to get into Masters of Doom again. You know, you talked about Blaster and making, uh, programming video games and, you know, he sold one of his video games to a magazine and he, you know, it's funny because I have heard people talk about how. He, he's kind of a poser when it comes to video games. Like he pays someone to play for his, for some game.

jon_raw: 18:20

Yeah, and

matt_elon01: 18:22

this, this actually, kind of count counter, uh, what is that, uh, contradicts that because he has, he's OG in terms of video games like this, this has been a pa, a lifelong passion for him. Uh.

jon_raw: 18:37

he definitely is. He's not a poser in that regard. Um, also I've heard him, I've heard people say similar things about like the Quake competition. Um, and it turns out he actually did, him and his team did do really well in a quake competition. So it's, so, yeah. I mean, he does have a background in video games, although he did recently lie about his achievement in some dumb game. I can't even remember what it was, like Diablo four or something.

matt_elon01: 19:03

Yeah, that was that was the most recent thing is like, they were like he, he was very clearly he was making mistakes in the ui, that if you had actually gotten a character to that level that you would've done 10,000 times. Uh.

jon_raw: 19:18

yep. Yeah. But, and this is such an interesting theme with Musk, is like a lot of times he does have the, you know, capability or the intelligence to back something up. But then in the same breath he'll lie or he'll over exaggerate

matt_elon01: 19:36

Yeah.

jon_raw: 19:37

you know, show these sort of narcissistic qualities. And it's kind of like, I feel like if he just stuck to the truth and like discussed his actual achievements and whatever, like he'd be fine. But I think he just want, you know, he's always striving for like the next thing and to be better and bigger and, I dunno, it's just

matt_elon01: 19:56

And again, I mean that has to do with this like aggrandizement From his father. where it always has to be this, this crazy story. And I think that he kind of, he, he is doing the same thing.

jon_raw: 20:12

Yep, a hundred percent. Uh, and speaking of his father's aggrandizement, uh, there was this hilarious part where his dad was talking about like casino. Roulette,

matt_elon01: 20:24

Hmm.

jon_raw: 20:25

uh, which I guess his dad thought that he had like figured out roulette. Yeah. And, and, uh, there's this hilarious section in the book where his dad is giving this monologue about like, oh yeah, there's no such thing as randomness. It's just the Fibonacci sequence, blah, blah, blah. Uh, and it, I don't know, it just struck me as like, man, just imagine if your dad was like going on and on about this nonsense. Um, and yeah. Yet another, have you ever heard of ology?

matt_elon01: 20:58

Oh yeah. What? That's one times. One equals, oh, wait. One time. One times one equals two. Uh. Or,

jon_raw: 21:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It had a, it very much had a ology vibe to me. It's weird how people, I don't know, get caught up in these like math things that are just clearly wrong.

matt_elon01: 21:15

It's funny Because, yeah, I, I feel like I've thought about this before, where the human mind is this, this fantastic, you know, fantastically complex machine and a, a machine that's incredibly complicated can actually. Fall victim to, you know, fall into these very low mini of performance. You know, when you, when it's so flexible, it can be really amazing, but then it also can be incredibly terrible. Uh.

jon_raw: 21:50

Right. Yeah. And that it, that appears to have happened with a person like, like Errol where I,'cause I mean, Errol does seem to be like a very smart guy. Like he was successful in

matt_elon01: 22:03

He was an engineer, right? Wasn't he? Uh, an

jon_raw: 22:06

He was an engineer. Yeah. Uh, so he, he clearly had a lot of aptitude. But yeah, I think, like you're saying, he just. He lived on a razor's edge and at some point he sort of went over to the other side.

matt_elon01: 22:18

Um, But so. uh, he, there was a point in this chapter where he talks about deciding whether or not he wanted to build video games, and maybe this kind of starts to dip into the next, the next section or, or do something else. And he, there, there was a moment where, like, this could have been the next chapter in Masters of Doom, but like he. Uh, or I guess like in, in the history of, of video game development, but he's, he wanted like, he had bigger, bigger visions for, uh, for himself and he wanted to aspire more, more greatly.

jon_raw: 22:57

Yeah,

matt_elon01: 22:58

um, but Yeah, yeah. go for it.

jon_raw: 23:01

sorry, this, this is something that impresses me about Elon. I'm always impressed with people who, from a very young age. Can just clearly see what their life is going to be about. Yeah, and it seems like Elon is one of those people where he just knew that video games weren't gonna be big enough for him. He wanted to have a very high level of impact on human society, and which is impressive. I mean, for like a 15-year-old to have those thoughts is, is kind of amazing. Well, and I think a lot of 15 year olds have those thoughts and they're just delusional, but. Uh, I think, I mean, obviously he has had a massive impact, so I think, you know, maybe he was one of the few that knew he had the minerals to back it up.

matt_elon01: 23:47

It is so funny because I think a lot of 15 year olds, they don't even, they're not even really thinking about that.

jon_raw: 23:52

Right. Yeah. I certainly

matt_elon01: 23:54

Yeah, they're just like, you know, I just wanna play, play video games. I just wanna get to the next level. And,

jon_raw: 23:59

Kiss a girl or, yeah,

matt_elon01: 24:01

yeah. exactly. And I think even as people get older, I think for a lot of people they, they don't have a longer term plan essentially. I mean, it's funny because I certainly have, have never had, uh, as any plans as long, I mean, I guess very, very few people have plans like on the level of Elon Musk who starting in the nineties, he was already thinking about making earth multiplane or making human civilization multiplanetary. So this is now what, going on like 40 years or uh, 30 years at least, that is working towards this.

jon_raw: 24:41

Yeah. Yep. Um, so he could sort of tell that his future was gonna be in the United States and he made this move to go to Canada.'cause that was kind of a good first step to getting into the United States. And so he was trying to pick between universities that he could attend. And he was looking at Waterloo and Queens and I, I guess he picked Queens because it had girls.

matt_elon01: 25:09

That was so funny. And like,'cause I think Waterloo. is an incredible school, like a great school, Yeah.

jon_raw: 25:17

big engineering school too. A lot of, uh, you know, there's a Google office in that area and you know, a lot of great engineers come from Waterloo.

matt_elon01: 25:24

There's actually a very interesting part of this, you know, where he talks about going to Canada. He, he basically just decided himself and went to Canada alone and, you know, his parents gave him like$4,000. And, and people, some people talk about how, oh, like. Elon Musk had his super rich father, and he, that is not that really does not bear out.

jon_raw: 25:51

Not really. Yeah.

matt_elon01: 25:52

you know, he, his Father. did have some like emerald mine or something. But for one uninteresting reason or another, it basically became worthless, uh, even

jon_raw: 26:05

And he had a Rolls Royce at some point, but he was kind of a grifter. Like he just kind like occasionally he had a lot of money and then he would spend it all

matt_elon01: 26:13

Yeah. Yeah. But so what this means is Musk Showed up in Canada. with not much more than the clothing on his back, basically. Uh,

jon_raw: 26:24

Yeah. And like you're saying, he like willed himself to Canada, you know, it's it like he, yeah. This, this whole, uh, legend of Musk where he like, yeah, had all this money and was able to do this.

matt_elon01: 26:35

had a silver spoon in his mouth. Yeah.

jon_raw: 26:37

e Exactly.

matt_elon01: 26:38

but that he picked, the other thing is he picked Canada because he could go, he could go there solo. Like the requirements in terms of the applications for the visas were, were just something that he could, he could pull off. And then his plan was eventually just start in Canada and then eventually he would go to the United States.

jon_raw: 26:56

Right. Yeah. And he sort of quickly discovered that he wanted to ride this internet wave. Um, he went to Penn. I. So this was sort of his entry into the United States. He had several internships, well, I guess two, two main internships. One during the day and one at night, which kind of speaks to his work ethic. But they mentioned a couple instances where he was fixing these, like really hairy, like bugs with dos, multitasking. Um, he had an aptitude with physical like components, which is another thing that's not very common. Uh, like me personally, I really only understand computer science. I think you have a much stronger background with both computer science and, uh, physical components, which I've always thought was awesome. But I think, you know, for someone like Elon Musk to sort of have a brilliance with both the programming side of things and, you know, more of the hands-on side of things does kind of speak to his capability, which I, I feel like this is another thing that goes around about Elon is that he's a faker or a opposer. With his technical abilities. And again, I don't think that's true. I think there's cases where he's exaggerated his technical abilities or where he's said things that are very dubious. But at the same time, he has clearly shown very strong technical ability. Um, and so, and I'm sure we'll talk about this more, but I think this was just an early case where he was like fixing these crazy bugs that even seasoned engineers couldn't handle. Yeah,

matt_elon01: 28:27

Yeah, that, I mean, that was one where it was like, okay, clearly he, he has, yeah, they, they talk about that bug where they were like, all of the other engineers on the team could not fix it, but he swooped in and fixed it in two weeks or, or whatever. So, um, it, it's, it, it. The sense that I'm getting is that his, his expertise is kind of like lumpy, almost. Like where he'll spend like a t, like uh, he'll focus super hard on one issue and he will achieve a tremendous amount, like in that one domain. And then sometimes that. will cause him to have like this hubris, uh, about everything, which is Not true He doesn't have that level everywhere. but he is able to achieve it kind of anywhere he points his focus. Uh. So it's interesting.

jon_raw: 29:21

Yeah. I think lumpy is such a good word to describe it because it's like, uh, later on. They mentioned this part where like his own technical lead was wrestling with this like Oracle database issue from eunuchs or something. And Elon didn't, you know, from all appearances, like he was a Windows guy. Like he didn't, seemed to care about this stuff, but he just knew the answer. Um, and so it does seem like Elon has these like random bits and pieces of just insanely deep knowledge or capability. Yeah, but then he also has these massive gaps where, and when, when those gaps come up, he just fakes it. He just makes shit up.

matt_elon01: 30:06

Yeah. Yeah.

jon_raw: 30:07

which is interesting. But in any case, we're sort of, we're sort of running up to his entry into, you know, Silicon Valley and like being an entrepreneur. Um, and I thought this would be maybe a good place to end the first episode.

matt_elon01: 30:23

Yeah, I. think, I think that makes sense. Yeah. We're right at this internet wave and he, he said, you know, this is gonna be. An opportunity that that only comes along once in a lifetime. He, you know, he's deciding whether or not he wants to get his PhD and he decides like most, most PhDs are, are irrelevant. Uh, and so, so yeah, he, he decides to, to make the move to Silicon Valley and, uh, try to make it in this new, this new internet

jon_raw: 30:55

Yep. Drop outta college people.'cause that's what all successful people seem to do.

matt_elon01: 31:00

He did, did he get his master's at, at Penn?

jon_raw: 31:05

I recall a part where he had asked a professor, he said, I'm gonna go try to make it as an entrepreneur. Can I please come back if I fail? And the professor was like, sure, you can come back, but I'll never see you

matt_elon01: 31:19

I don't think you're, you're coming back. So he, so he Got his bachelor's. But he never did any graduate study.

jon_raw: 31:27

Well, my understanding is well, and I could be missing something, but he went to Queens. Did he get his bachelor's at Queens? And then he dropped out Pen,

matt_elon01: 31:35

Well, and this is the thing I was thinking. Yeah. Did he transfer? Yeah, he got bored at Queens. Uh, he transferred, uh, to Penn.'cause they gave him basically a full ride.

jon_raw: 31:50

Uh, okay. So he was still working on his bachelor's when he transferred to Penn.

matt_elon01: 31:54

And I think that he did, my sense was that he did complete his bachelor's at Penn and then he was deciding what to do afterwards. Uh, but I could be, I could be misremembering that, anyway, this, maybe this is, but the particulars are not too important. Uh,

jon_raw: 32:16

Okay, so stay in school. Stay in

matt_elon01: 32:18

Stay in school. ju I think. I think get your bachelor's and everything else is a waste.'cause that's what I did. And so I tell everyone else that because I want to feel like I didn't miss something.

jon_raw: 32:29

Yeah.

matt_elon01: 32:31

All right. I will see you next time to see where, where Elon goes, the waves he creates in the internet.

jon_raw: 32:40

Okay, I see you next time, Matt.